I’ve done a session of holotropic breathwork before. It was a surprisingly strong experience.
25 minutes of rapid deepish breathing while listening to music. I was doing it as part of a group session and funnily it was conducted via zoom.
After the first 10, it becomes easy to keep the breathing pace. Moderately deep hallucinations, sweating a _lot_ on the bed. The weirdest part was that my face wanted to screw up in contortions. I felt my lips tight and couldn’t control my facial muscles until they hurt. I lost track of time and the session felt like it ended quickly.
Afterwards there was a positivity mindset like a mild mushroom afterglow. I would probably do it again.
adastra22 11 days ago [-]
That sounds like your body telling you not to do it.
11 days ago [-]
4ndrewl 10 days ago [-]
Strong Darwin Award vibes here
teh_infallible 11 days ago [-]
It also leaves you in a very suggestive state. I did several sessions with a “rebirther” years ago, basically holotropic breath work. I decided I didn’t really need it, and I went in my last few sessions determined to quit, but at the end of the session, the practitioner always managed to convince me I needed another session. I eventually broke it off with him over the phone.
pharrington 11 days ago [-]
It sounds like you experienced oxygen deprivation.
jobs_throwaway 11 days ago [-]
how do you suppose he got oxygen deprivation by breathing deeply?
Aerbil313 10 days ago [-]
You don't get more oxygen by breathing more. When you breath more the CO2 is expelled from your blood and hemoglobin cannot efficiently collect and transmit O2 in the absence of some specific amount of CO2. In fact most people overbreathe, and they should be breathing less to be optimally oxygenized.
The book Breath: The New Science of a Lost Art details the journey of James Nestor as he goes over all these different methods and exercises, it's the #1 book I recommend to everyone. The number one certain conclusion to take home from the book that'll literally extend your lifespan significantly: Don't mouthbreathe, never ever.
tstrimple 8 days ago [-]
Huh. I always associated hyper ventilating as a mechanism to increase O2 in the body allowing for longer free dives, etc.
Looks like those benefits mostly come from lower initial CO2.
While Bohr effect is a real thing obviously, your description doesn't seem to be fully correct (though it's not my field of expertise). Haemoglobin will link with O₂ just fine when level of CO₂ is decreased, only release of it in tissues will be negatively affected. But it's not like it stops at all, and to me it's not clear if it can really lead to a full-scale oxygen deprivation. Blood low acidity resulting from low CO₂ can explain symptoms like involuntary muscle contractions described by that poster above on its own
_DeadFred_ 10 days ago [-]
How long before this become a TIL on Reddit? I'm guessing it's already in the que. Then it will slowly make it's way to different sites with titles like 'This one thing is ruining you energy level'...'5 quick hacks to increase your oxygen levels, you will never guess what number 5 is'...
Aerbil313 putting in the hard work to keep the content wheels of society turning!
But I do love seeing these 'echos' bounce from discussions like this off into public consciousness then into the randomest places.
retrac 11 days ago [-]
The hypoxia/suffocation instinct, the irresistible urge to breathe, is caused by carbon dioxide levels in the blood. The nervous system has no means of directly detecting oxygen, or its absence. If you walk into a room of pure nitrogen there is almost no warning. The CO2 levels remain low, everything is fine while all your oxygen is rapidly dumped to the oxygen-free air - two deep breaths gets rid of most of it. Another 15 seconds after that you are dizzy, another 15 to 45 after that you are unconscious. Terrible design, IMHO, but presumably not a common situation in the ancient environment.
If you hyperventilate, it drives out the carbonic acid and CO2 in the body. But the blood is normally already near saturation for oxygen. This unusually low level of CO2 allows you to hold your breath much longer by suppressing the suffocation response, sometimes to the point of unconsciousness. You don't realize you should breathe. You feel fine, just a little lighthea... This is why you should never hyperventilate before diving under water.
hackernewds 11 days ago [-]
oxygen deprivation is not euphoric. shouldn't be so flippantly reductive
huygens6363 11 days ago [-]
I thought it was common knowledge that it is in fact euphoric. Happy to be told I’m wrong though.
(Think of nitrous oxide and .. the thing with asphyxiation and a certain pleasurable activity)
karmakurtisaani 11 days ago [-]
Definitely mildly euphoric and relaxing. Source: have been choked out in BJJ training a few times. Woke up happy and relaxed every time.
aeonik 10 days ago [-]
It is common knowledge. Kids play the choking game, people die from autoerotic asphyxiation, and folks who fly or dive are trained to recognize the symptoms as well.
The burning feeling that you get when your hold your breath is a build up of CO2, not a lack of O2.
I've heard about people awakening their kundalini with that. It fucked them for years since they had no clue what was happening, and no preparation or support.
omnimus 11 days ago [-]
What changes with oneself when they awaken their kundalini?
temp0826 11 days ago [-]
Extraordinary sensitivity, internally and externally. It's considered a very advanced practice because without a trained mind it is extremely jarring, will induce anxiety and maybe make you start thinking that you have psychic abilities (or schizophrenia).
bmacho 11 days ago [-]
You mean someone awakened their kundalini, wasn't aware of it, and it took years for them to figure it out? Can you describe the symptoms?
nprateem 11 days ago [-]
No, they were very aware of it. Huge energy surges, hallucinations, emotions go haywire, etc. It can take years to stabilise if you don't know what you're doing, and apparently you can easily question your sanity (even if you know what to expect - if you have no guide you might really struggle with understanding the process).
One guy would nearly pass out every time he got an erection, some people have a phase of not being able to eat anything but yoghurt or milk, etc. Huge changes, like a second puberty.
simple10 11 days ago [-]
Yes! Holotropic is crazy strong. I remember having to sign a waiver that was akin to a skydiving waiver before doing holotropic breathwork session online. Highly recommended if you feel inclined to try it.
swader999 11 days ago [-]
It can be deeply emotional for some.
eigenschwarz 11 days ago [-]
This sounds great but I just can't get by the oxygen deprivation and potential harm to your brain. Not to mention the hypercapnia induced tetany is very uncomfortable and seems a clear signal from the body that "this isn't good!".
[As part of a psychedelic retreat we did breathwork the day before the trip to "open the mind". I faked it because I was worried about the above unanswered questions I had. I still had a great trip and feel no need for another one or similar (ie. via breathwork) to this day. :) ]
jobs_throwaway 11 days ago [-]
Oxygen deprivation? As noted in the study, circular breathwork has been shown to increase blood oxygenation
eigenschwarz 10 days ago [-]
In response to this there is vasoconstriction of the cerebral vasculature. No one knows if mild damage is being done to the brain from this.
Somewhat related (not exact same mechanism, but similar), there is evidence elite free-divers are harming their brains [1]. It is easy enough to find literature about the appearance of SB100 protein with too long apnea training (eg. [2]).
However, breath-holding/apnea is not the same as breathwork. The fact of the matter is, there will be no definitive proof one way or the other until someone directly probes cerebral O2 levels for an acute and chronic intervention of breathwork. Again, as someone who has indeed done psychedelics and meditates, I am open to alternative modalities, but I will personally wait for the science over anecdotes.
At least I appreciate they have the decency to not call it "higher states of consciousness". Altered is what they are, altered almost to the point of losing it, but definitely not higher - at least for my understanding where "higher" would mean some added capabilities not attained otherwise.
11 days ago [-]
pmichaud 11 days ago [-]
I feel the same. I did it once and had a big experience, but I just can my talk myself into believing it’s safe.
nradov 11 days ago [-]
Free divers experience the same hypoxia and hypercapnia effects. Doesn't seem to be a problem.
Enginerrrd 11 days ago [-]
I think I recall reading a paper a while back on free divers that showed there was damage being done to the brain even though it wasn't immediately apparent. Similar to how lots of small brain impacts add up in football players.
mightyham 11 days ago [-]
> Doesn't seem to be a problem
I'm almost certain any amount of oxygen deprivation is damaging to the brain. If there were studies that showed conclusions to the contrary, I'd be very curious to read them.
gonzo41 11 days ago [-]
They die all the time. It's a problem. :P
11 days ago [-]
elif 11 days ago [-]
As wim would say, get high on your own supply.
But in seriousness hyperoxia is mildly psychedelic, especially when you are in a state (athletic, euphoric, love etc) which naturally produces high levels of serotonin, oxytocin, dopamine, etc.
When I was backpacking for 7 months with my wife, I would climb mountains as fast as I could and wait for her at the tops. I started doing wim hof while waiting and it was deeply rewarding
boringg 11 days ago [-]
To add to this - if you get buried in an avalanche you likely go hypoxic. Many people pulled out sometimes in the moment react negatively to be saved as they are pulled out of a euphoric state even though they are literally getting saved from death.
swader999 11 days ago [-]
Just don't do Wim Hof type breathing while driving, near water or risk of fall is high. You can pass out or faint easily if you do it a little wrong.
redblacktree 11 days ago [-]
Thank you for introducing me to this. Having done just one round, the effects are reminiscent of nitrous oxide. Very interesting indeed! As you suggest, I think I'll try this again after a bout of vigorous exercise.
rufugee 11 days ago [-]
What specifically did you try? The wim hof breathing method after strenuous exercise?
redblacktree 11 days ago [-]
Wim hof, no exercise. (but will do so later, after my normal workout routine)
As others in the thread have said, this may not be any better for my health than N2O, but it's still interesting nonetheless. Probably not something for every day.
idontwantthis 11 days ago [-]
Did you feel like it was “good” for you in any way? I’ve experienced the euphoria and I definitely compare it to nitrous oxide, in that it is pleasurable, fleeting and unfulfilling. Plus I sometimes ended up with a persistent headache.
It made me feel better temporarily in a time of distress, but like any drug, it only numbed me and did nothing to improve my outlook.
121789 11 days ago [-]
Wim hof feels great, but I always kinda feel like I’m doing something mildly unhealthy when I do it
If you’re open to it, I can teach you. My email is in my profile
unrealp 11 days ago [-]
Sounds counter intuitive but breathwork reduces o2 to brain. Basically due to reduced co2, blood vessels in the brain constrict.
Having said that, I worked with a breathwork teacher for a while, creating narrative for the session, for mental imagery and guidance. It also had music as a backdrop. Fun times. And it was definitely altered state for a lot of people.
michael-ax 11 days ago [-]
EXACTLY! That's why you breathe into a paper-bag (or smoke) to increase CO2 so that the filters open and you get to a point where you feel O2 tingles all over your brain. This is extremely powerful; I practiced that and underwater held-breath swimming and hanging out underwater for a long time to obtain permanent changes that have made me far more effective. Based on work first published by W.Wenger out of a Maryland Think-tank some 50? years ago.
Etherlord87 11 days ago [-]
So wim hof method, by breathing a lot, deprives you of oxygen, reducing brain functionality and therefore giving you a drug-like pleasure, whereas recycling air in a bag ends up giving you more oxygen and increasing brain efficiency? May sound like sarcasm, but honestly, do I need a diving gear to test it on myself or is a paper bag enough?
"For accumulating 20 hours of held-breath underwater swimming within 3 weeks from start to finish– 10 or more points I.Q. gain; better span of attention; better span of awareness; better awareness of the interrelatedness of things and of ideas and/or perceptions; finding yourself way better at winning arguments or disputes!"
It should go without saying this is nonsense.
grugagag 11 days ago [-]
This is probably nonsense for a healthy person but for someone who doesn’t get enough o2 it probably has the same benefits of a person who does.
rybosworld 11 days ago [-]
That's the kind of inference that allows these claims to proliferate.
This article makes a lot of claims about I.Q. scores before and after holding breath (specifically underwater, for some reason), but there are no links to studies, no mention of who or how many people participated, etc.
This is the definition of a baseless claim.
algorias 11 days ago [-]
Not defending the overall claim, but there's a plausible reason why being underwater matters: the mammalian diving reflex. Holding your breath on land is not the same.
relaxing 11 days ago [-]
That too is the kind of inference that allows these claims to proliferate.
tapotatonumber9 11 days ago [-]
Perhaps being under water makes it harder to “cheat”.
ay 11 days ago [-]
Any pointers to read more ?
My GP friends only pointed me to respiratory alcalosis, which doesn’t appear to be about O2 levels at all - it’s the pH being out of the narrow “acceptable” band (too low in the case of hyperventilation) appeared to cause a lot of effect.
Though not acute, you can see the effects very easily. Within couple of minutes of deep breathing we could create peripheral numbing and tingling effect. (yoga folk say you are feeling energy moving though body and that kind of stuff haha)
ay 9 days ago [-]
Thank you! The second link was the missing one for me ;-)
I did a breath work session once out of curiosity, but it was so much voodoo talk and so much obvious exploitative power dynamics from the “guru” after the session, I could barely hold my disgust. (But yeah, I got both tingling and cramps on top of that)
Deliberately reducing the oxygen to the brain sounds like a not so good plan to me, regardless of what it is caused by…
I recently acquired the pulse oximeter that can be worn during sleep, and the correlation of oxygen levels during the night with how I feel in the morning is seemingly pretty strong.
Taikonerd 10 days ago [-]
Was the narrative something like, "you're on a mountaintop. You look around and see..." Or was it more abstract than that?
unrealp 7 days ago [-]
So the narrative was emotional/trauma release. When people get into altered state, the narrative said that their unresolved emotions would come to surface and be felt into their body and then they accept those things from the past and then the emotions would dissolve and there will be a 'release'. Its a common narrative, I wrote and organized the content so that a first timer would get impressed to expect a release. It worked for several people.
rqtwteye 11 days ago [-]
Holotropics has been around for quite a while and some yoga pranayamas also can lead to altered states. I have to admit I find mushrooms easier to deal with.
hackernewds 11 days ago [-]
An ascetic will tell you that a purer experience of spiritual connection is something you can control and remember afterwards.
foobiekr 11 days ago [-]
You remember mushrooms after.
dpig_ 8 days ago [-]
An ascetic will tell you that there was never any experience, nor any experiencer to have had one.
AstralStorm 11 days ago [-]
Remember what, the tingling mess and neuronal misfires of endogenous DMT release experience?
rqtwteye 11 days ago [-]
There is a always a purer version of any experience. This sounds a little elitist.
Traubenfuchs 11 days ago [-]
Ahhh yes, the bespoke, organic, pesticide free high of the true people. Why struggle when 10-20€ worth of ketamine will make you glide through impossible (un)existence for an hour or so.
Elitism and snobbism in spirituality and meditation circles is real!
FrustratedMonky 11 days ago [-]
Spiritual Elitism Aside.
One method is adjusting CO2/O2 levels. And if Yoga, you are moving and there are body/mind connections, even weight lifters can experience this. Even just stretching.
Versus laying on the couch on drugs.
Psychedelic's do "something", but not the "same thing".
colechristensen 11 days ago [-]
I wonder what other effects this has on the body. The signaling around CO2 levels does a lot to cellular respiration everywhere, not just the brain (think krebs cycle, etc).
smeej 11 days ago [-]
There's a product out, Freespira, that does breath work training monitored by a nasal cannula, to help people who experience panic attacks. The theory is that such people are chronic hyperventilators, so their blood CO2 is too low for the parasympathetic nervous system to operate correctly.
It didn't end up being a good fit for me, but if a person's PTSD comes from discrete events rather than a continually unsafe environment in early childhood, I think they'd have a better experience. (My parasympathetic nervous system never learned how to operate correctly, but if someone else's did and its function got interrupted later, I think their experience would be different.)
plaguuuuuu 11 days ago [-]
Strange side note. I've tried n-acetylcysteine as a supplement/medication, the weirdest thing about it is that I felt like I needed to breathe less often. And like I was breathing manually - which you are also doing now, ha.
I wonder if it helps with panic attacks.
AnthonBerg 11 days ago [-]
This makes immediate sense to me after having stumbled upon some of the academic literature on N-acetylcysteine.
There are results on it being anti-anxiety, yes.
Tons and tons of results; Wide scope. Pulmonary and neurobiological.
The wildest paper imo: “N-acetyl cysteine reverses bio-behavioural changes induced by prenatal inflammation, adolescent methamphetamine exposure and combined challenges” – https://doi.org/10.1007/s00213-017-4776-5
It’s just an… :exploding-head: paper.
There are also studies that check if humans fall into or out of various psychiatric disorder diagnostic criteria. Yes, NAC is anti-anxiety.
And! NAC is clearly and obviously mucolytic. Slime-dissolving. Its use as prescription and OTC medicine in my country is—I think, so far—exclusively as a lung-slime dissolver to help people breathe better.
ajb 11 days ago [-]
It's a very interesting paper. However, it's in rats, so among other things the timescale is very compressed compared to humans: we are taking about three NAC reversing changes 1-2 months later
AnthonBerg 11 days ago [-]
Ah, indeed, I would like to add that I’d never expect anything fully “the same” to happen in us. Nonetheless, it does work!, tons of more studies out there.
It’s wild to me that this substance—sold OTC as a mucolytic!—can have an impact like that in an animal model, and the molecular biology mechanisms of how it happens that the study shows are… well, yes, :exploding-head:
rendx 11 days ago [-]
Interesting! Thanks for the pointer.
malloryerik 11 days ago [-]
I’ve read of a credible person who says they use breathwork of some kind to help enter a state of flow. Does anyone here know if this sounds right? If so, how would one learn? Books? Courses? Coaches? Also, knowing nothing about it I’d assumed the breathwork would be like mindfulness or meditative breathing, but is this wrong? It might be something closer to hyperventilating?
mtalantikite 11 days ago [-]
The article mentioned Holotropic Breathwork, which is a method Stanislav Grof came up with after no longer being able to use LSD for his research in the 1960s. I haven't taken a course in it, but it does seem similar to Wim Hof's technique, which you can follow along an intro of on his YouTube [1].
All of it is pretty similar to various pranayama techniques that have existed in the yogas for thousands of years though. Iyengar's Light on Pranayama is a good resource for the various practices [2]. While Wim Hof and Holotropic Breathwork are slightly different, the closest to them from the yogas would maybe be bhastrika pranayam (and here's a random guy on YouTube that comes up when googling it -- just skimming it and it looks basically like what I was taught [3]).
Edit: I realized I didn't answer your question regarding how pranayama/breathwork compares to meditation. It's different than meditation (dhyana or jhana), but it's complimentary and there are elements that are similar. For instance, during pranayama practice you'll often have breath holds/retentions and during that time you'll be instructed to bring your awareness to something (a point on your body, on the awareness itself, etc). This is generally what you'd do in formal meditation practice too, but in this case it's for a much shorter period of time (the length of the breath hold). So in a way it gets you used to working with your awareness, to bring it internal for short periods of time many times. Many people will practice pranayama before beginning formal seated meditation practice. I personally use nadi shodhana before meditation practice, and more vigorous pranayamas like kapalbhati and bhastrika before/during/after asana practice. They're also good to do in the middle of the day when you need a bit of a reset.
How were you introduced to all of this? I’d love to learn to practice original yoga/meditation.
mtalantikite 11 days ago [-]
Oh wow, how to answer succinctly -- it's been a long, meandering path! I'll try my best. While I'd say I first learned about meditation from my music practice as a child, my first formal introduction to meditation was through Thanissaro Bhikkhu [1] who a few of my friends practiced with in college (and later ordained as monks with). I later came to Mahayana Buddhism through Suzuki [2] and Thich Nhat Hanh [3], and then settled into a Vajrayana practice -- I'd suggest Mingyur Rinpoche's Joy of Living course for an intro to Vajrayana [4].
For yoga practice I happened to one day wander into the closest yoga studio to my house here in Brooklyn, which coincidentally happened to be one of the best yoga schools in the city at the time. The owner [5] was exceptionally challenging, all his teachers were the best around, and he really pushed everyone to expand their limits, it was a great environment to learn in. I was going at least 5x per week for a few years. It can be hard to find a yoga school, as most these days are just gym classes, and very few are going to teach pranayama, kriyas, meditation, etc. If I'm in a new place and am looking for a shala to practice in I'll typically choose the place that has Ashtanga/Mysore on the schedule, as it's likely that the owners/teachers aren't just interested in yoga as exercise. I'd really suggest finding a master teacher/s to practice with in real life, there's nothing like it. You'll know it when you find it.
I also read pretty obsessively when I started my yoga practice, some of which I'll leave below [6][7][8][9][10][11]. If you start practicing you'll find the sutras and other texts that speak to you as well, just put in the work and stay curious and open! Happy to answer any questions.
The best book bar none that I've ever found on pranayama is Pranayama by Gregor Maehle
swayvil 11 days ago [-]
I think the ancient yoga wizards of yore called that "Pranayama".
MrLeap 11 days ago [-]
Is circular breath work just hyper ventilating?
yencabulator 11 days ago [-]
But hyperventilating sounds scientific and reductive circles are mystical and sell well! And we gotta separate our ancient shamanic yogi breathing school from those damn box breathing gurus!
notnaut 11 days ago [-]
Yep. Feels good man.
Same as all the psychs.
And altered perspective can make you wiser.
ergonaught 11 days ago [-]
It isn’t new, even for the academic community, that modulating CO2 levels via breathing alters consciousness.
Breathwork is a really uncomfortable experience. I lay on a floor mat hyperventilating for an hour with a group of people only to feel a little expanded. Breathwork was developed as an alternative to psychedelics becasue those were illegal, and now that psilocybin is readily available in California there's no need for it. Thumbs down.
rqtwteye 11 days ago [-]
It takes a while to get used to breathwork. When I started, focusing on the breath always gave me anxiety. It took quite a while to make it into a comfortable experience.
labrador 11 days ago [-]
It really dries out the lungs besides being uncomfortable
FrustratedMonky 11 days ago [-]
There are a lot of breathing methods out there, like this, and Wim Hof. Is there any side by side comparisons.
Side by Side Down to exact method. So many breaths, long, short, lengths, times.
I'd really like to know if it all boils down to just O2/CO2 balance, and each method just ends up with a different ratio.
Argonaut998 11 days ago [-]
FYI: Not all breath-work is hyperventilating.
unrealp 11 days ago [-]
The study that has been mentioned talks about Holotropic Breathwork and Consciously-Connected breathwork are. I have worked with CCB.
suroot 11 days ago [-]
My buddy goes into schizophrenia episodes every time he goes for a long run. Any ideas?
MrLeap 11 days ago [-]
Your buddy ought to see a healthcare professional, I'm just some guy on the internet.
That said: here's a description of prodromal schizophrenia. Your description reads like category #2 to me.
"Prodrome phase can also be categorized in three different ways:
Category 1 means the patient should have at least one of the following symptoms: False beliefs that random events in the world directly relate to them, odd beliefs, or magical thinking; visual disturbance; odd thinking and speech; paranoid ideation; and odd behavior or appearance.
Category 2 includes patients who have experienced psychotic symptoms that come and go, which have spontaneously resolved within a week.
Category 3 includes a combination of genetic risk (i.e., being the first-degree relative of an individual with a diagnosis of schizophrenia) with substantial changes in personal daily functioning in the previous year. "
I believe running, especially long runs will cause changes in brain chemistry. Rapid increases in norepinephrine, GABA, and serotonin. I wonder if that sudden release triggers something. Same mechanism as a runner’s high
swader999 11 days ago [-]
@goggins would agree
francisofascii 11 days ago [-]
Interesting. It is common for marathon runners to experience cognitive impairment, delusions, and hallucinations. Does this occur late in the run? Is heat, altitude, or lack of fueling a factor?
DANmode 11 days ago [-]
Acute toxicity due to distribution of accumulated toxin (of some kind) by the violent action of running.
rustcleaner 11 days ago [-]
Probably this House M.D. -tier answer.
fredoliveira 11 days ago [-]
It can't be House M.D. because the diagnostic isn't lupus.
EMM_386 11 days ago [-]
I've done breathwork sessions before.
It felt strange, yes you can midly hallucinate and feel "otherworldly" but I always left thinking "ok, I just hyperventilated for 20 minutes ... this is exatly how I'd expect to feel".
And now we have a scientific study that proves it.
It seemed pretty obvious to me.
wouldbecouldbe 11 days ago [-]
That's a very technologist know it all answer.
As if we fully understand, brain, conciousness, biology, body & spiritual experiences fully. There is so much to learn.
The questions for instance arises how does this connect to emotional & spiritual experiences that derive from those practices.
It's the same with psychedelics, they are chemically induced but often lead to meaningful experiences due a shift in the way we experience reality & conciousness.
Is it a peak into a wider experience of the world that makes us realize the world as we experience it, might not be as real as we think it is? Who knows, so many interesting questions & options.
EMM_386 11 days ago [-]
The funny thing is I spend my free time learning as much as I can about consciousness, alterered states of consciousness, the nature of reality, spirtual experiences, all that stuff.
That's how I ended up in a breathwork session.
But I still live in the universe, and the universe follows rules.
In this case, my body's CO2/Oxygen imbalance was out of whack, and I probably should have started breathing into a paper bag.
Consciousness is cool and all, but doing solid breathwork for over 20 minutes will upset the balance of molecules impotrant to a functioning consciousness. So while you may feel yourself soaring toward another dimension, it's your brain screaming for oxygen.
My 2 cents.
bowsamic 11 days ago [-]
Kant already explained this in the mind of all “technologist know it all” though
_akhe 11 days ago [-]
Combination of excess oxygen and rhythmic/yogic type trance?
barrenko 11 days ago [-]
This is opening callback to birth trauma.
11 days ago [-]
m3kw9 11 days ago [-]
What about LSD
ilrwbwrkhv 11 days ago [-]
One should avoid this. It damages the brain. Better is just pure meditation where you can reach bliss states pretty fast once you can get access concentration.
jobs_throwaway 11 days ago [-]
citation needed
ilaksh 11 days ago [-]
Just the word "breathwork" is obnoxious to me. I suppose it's interesting that if you hyperventilate enough you can reduce oxygen in your brain to the point where you hallucinate. And that is probably safer than taking psychedelics.
But the idea that you would do that routinely seems obviously stupid to me. I think if you keep doing it for a number of years then you could damage your brain. My understanding is that your brain needs oxygen.
gardnr 11 days ago [-]
Got that one backwards:
> Hyperventilation is irregular breathing that occurs when the rate or tidal volume of breathing eliminates more carbon dioxide than the body can produce.
They were correct. Hemoglobin needs CO2 to release oxygen. If you are low on CO2 your tissues become oxygen deprived.
yorwba 11 days ago [-]
Removing carbon dioxide via your lungs doesn't mean your brain gets more oxygen. The "altered states of consciousness" are symptoms of oxygen deprivation which can be induced in other ways, but maybe hyperventilation is a particularly fun way to do it.
codr7 11 days ago [-]
I take it you haven't put a lot of effort into examining the practice? Pranayama is a pretty comprehensive system, and it has survived to this day for good reasons.
adrianN 11 days ago [-]
„It’sa comprehensive system that survived for hundreds of years“ is true for a lot of woo woo, eg astrology.
codr7 10 days ago [-]
True, that by itself is but an indicator.
But that line of reasoning unfortunately leads absolutely nowhere worth going, a lot of supposed woo woo turns out to be something else on closer examination.
Living life by popular opinion is not a very successful strategy if you ask me.
andybak 11 days ago [-]
It seems obvious to me that the things you find obviously stupid, obviously aren't.
25 minutes of rapid deepish breathing while listening to music. I was doing it as part of a group session and funnily it was conducted via zoom.
After the first 10, it becomes easy to keep the breathing pace. Moderately deep hallucinations, sweating a _lot_ on the bed. The weirdest part was that my face wanted to screw up in contortions. I felt my lips tight and couldn’t control my facial muscles until they hurt. I lost track of time and the session felt like it ended quickly.
Afterwards there was a positivity mindset like a mild mushroom afterglow. I would probably do it again.
See https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30252284/
The book Breath: The New Science of a Lost Art details the journey of James Nestor as he goes over all these different methods and exercises, it's the #1 book I recommend to everyone. The number one certain conclusion to take home from the book that'll literally extend your lifespan significantly: Don't mouthbreathe, never ever.
Looks like those benefits mostly come from lower initial CO2.
https://www.deeperblue.com/why-do-so-many-freedivers-hyperve...
Aerbil313 putting in the hard work to keep the content wheels of society turning!
But I do love seeing these 'echos' bounce from discussions like this off into public consciousness then into the randomest places.
If you hyperventilate, it drives out the carbonic acid and CO2 in the body. But the blood is normally already near saturation for oxygen. This unusually low level of CO2 allows you to hold your breath much longer by suppressing the suffocation response, sometimes to the point of unconsciousness. You don't realize you should breathe. You feel fine, just a little lighthea... This is why you should never hyperventilate before diving under water.
(Think of nitrous oxide and .. the thing with asphyxiation and a certain pleasurable activity)
The burning feeling that you get when your hold your breath is a build up of CO2, not a lack of O2.
PDF warning: https://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pilotsafetybrochures/media...
One guy would nearly pass out every time he got an erection, some people have a phase of not being able to eat anything but yoghurt or milk, etc. Huge changes, like a second puberty.
[As part of a psychedelic retreat we did breathwork the day before the trip to "open the mind". I faked it because I was worried about the above unanswered questions I had. I still had a great trip and feel no need for another one or similar (ie. via breathwork) to this day. :) ]
Somewhat related (not exact same mechanism, but similar), there is evidence elite free-divers are harming their brains [1]. It is easy enough to find literature about the appearance of SB100 protein with too long apnea training (eg. [2]).
However, breath-holding/apnea is not the same as breathwork. The fact of the matter is, there will be no definitive proof one way or the other until someone directly probes cerebral O2 levels for an acute and chronic intervention of breathwork. Again, as someone who has indeed done psychedelics and meditates, I am open to alternative modalities, but I will personally wait for the science over anecdotes.
[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29053942 [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19574501/
I'm almost certain any amount of oxygen deprivation is damaging to the brain. If there were studies that showed conclusions to the contrary, I'd be very curious to read them.
But in seriousness hyperoxia is mildly psychedelic, especially when you are in a state (athletic, euphoric, love etc) which naturally produces high levels of serotonin, oxytocin, dopamine, etc.
When I was backpacking for 7 months with my wife, I would climb mountains as fast as I could and wait for her at the tops. I started doing wim hof while waiting and it was deeply rewarding
As others in the thread have said, this may not be any better for my health than N2O, but it's still interesting nonetheless. Probably not something for every day.
It made me feel better temporarily in a time of distress, but like any drug, it only numbed me and did nothing to improve my outlook.
https://www.wimhofmethod.com/breathing-exercises
https://youtu.be/0BNejY1e9ik?feature=shared
Having said that, I worked with a breathwork teacher for a while, creating narrative for the session, for mental imagery and guidance. It also had music as a backdrop. Fun times. And it was definitely altered state for a lot of people.
"For accumulating 20 hours of held-breath underwater swimming within 3 weeks from start to finish– 10 or more points I.Q. gain; better span of attention; better span of awareness; better awareness of the interrelatedness of things and of ideas and/or perceptions; finding yourself way better at winning arguments or disputes!"
It should go without saying this is nonsense.
This article makes a lot of claims about I.Q. scores before and after holding breath (specifically underwater, for some reason), but there are no links to studies, no mention of who or how many people participated, etc.
This is the definition of a baseless claim.
My GP friends only pointed me to respiratory alcalosis, which doesn’t appear to be about O2 levels at all - it’s the pH being out of the narrow “acceptable” band (too low in the case of hyperventilation) appeared to cause a lot of effect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocapnia - Acute hypocapnia causes hypocapnic alkalosis, which causes cerebral vasoconstriction leading to cerebral hypoxia
Though not acute, you can see the effects very easily. Within couple of minutes of deep breathing we could create peripheral numbing and tingling effect. (yoga folk say you are feeling energy moving though body and that kind of stuff haha)
I did a breath work session once out of curiosity, but it was so much voodoo talk and so much obvious exploitative power dynamics from the “guru” after the session, I could barely hold my disgust. (But yeah, I got both tingling and cramps on top of that)
Deliberately reducing the oxygen to the brain sounds like a not so good plan to me, regardless of what it is caused by…
I recently acquired the pulse oximeter that can be worn during sleep, and the correlation of oxygen levels during the night with how I feel in the morning is seemingly pretty strong.
Elitism and snobbism in spirituality and meditation circles is real!
One method is adjusting CO2/O2 levels. And if Yoga, you are moving and there are body/mind connections, even weight lifters can experience this. Even just stretching.
Versus laying on the couch on drugs.
Psychedelic's do "something", but not the "same thing".
It didn't end up being a good fit for me, but if a person's PTSD comes from discrete events rather than a continually unsafe environment in early childhood, I think they'd have a better experience. (My parasympathetic nervous system never learned how to operate correctly, but if someone else's did and its function got interrupted later, I think their experience would be different.)
I wonder if it helps with panic attacks.
There are results on it being anti-anxiety, yes.
Tons and tons of results; Wide scope. Pulmonary and neurobiological.
The wildest paper imo: “N-acetyl cysteine reverses bio-behavioural changes induced by prenatal inflammation, adolescent methamphetamine exposure and combined challenges” – https://doi.org/10.1007/s00213-017-4776-5
It’s just an… :exploding-head: paper.
There are also studies that check if humans fall into or out of various psychiatric disorder diagnostic criteria. Yes, NAC is anti-anxiety.
And! NAC is clearly and obviously mucolytic. Slime-dissolving. Its use as prescription and OTC medicine in my country is—I think, so far—exclusively as a lung-slime dissolver to help people breathe better.
It’s wild to me that this substance—sold OTC as a mucolytic!—can have an impact like that in an animal model, and the molecular biology mechanisms of how it happens that the study shows are… well, yes, :exploding-head:
All of it is pretty similar to various pranayama techniques that have existed in the yogas for thousands of years though. Iyengar's Light on Pranayama is a good resource for the various practices [2]. While Wim Hof and Holotropic Breathwork are slightly different, the closest to them from the yogas would maybe be bhastrika pranayam (and here's a random guy on YouTube that comes up when googling it -- just skimming it and it looks basically like what I was taught [3]).
Edit: I realized I didn't answer your question regarding how pranayama/breathwork compares to meditation. It's different than meditation (dhyana or jhana), but it's complimentary and there are elements that are similar. For instance, during pranayama practice you'll often have breath holds/retentions and during that time you'll be instructed to bring your awareness to something (a point on your body, on the awareness itself, etc). This is generally what you'd do in formal meditation practice too, but in this case it's for a much shorter period of time (the length of the breath hold). So in a way it gets you used to working with your awareness, to bring it internal for short periods of time many times. Many people will practice pranayama before beginning formal seated meditation practice. I personally use nadi shodhana before meditation practice, and more vigorous pranayamas like kapalbhati and bhastrika before/during/after asana practice. They're also good to do in the middle of the day when you need a bit of a reset.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tybOi4hjZFQ
[2] https://archive.org/details/iyengar-bks-light-on-pranayama-o...
[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I578H4VoZiY
For yoga practice I happened to one day wander into the closest yoga studio to my house here in Brooklyn, which coincidentally happened to be one of the best yoga schools in the city at the time. The owner [5] was exceptionally challenging, all his teachers were the best around, and he really pushed everyone to expand their limits, it was a great environment to learn in. I was going at least 5x per week for a few years. It can be hard to find a yoga school, as most these days are just gym classes, and very few are going to teach pranayama, kriyas, meditation, etc. If I'm in a new place and am looking for a shala to practice in I'll typically choose the place that has Ashtanga/Mysore on the schedule, as it's likely that the owners/teachers aren't just interested in yoga as exercise. I'd really suggest finding a master teacher/s to practice with in real life, there's nothing like it. You'll know it when you find it.
I also read pretty obsessively when I started my yoga practice, some of which I'll leave below [6][7][8][9][10][11]. If you start practicing you'll find the sutras and other texts that speak to you as well, just put in the work and stay curious and open! Happy to answer any questions.
[1] https://www.dhammatalks.org/
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_Mind,_Beginner%27s_Mind
[3] https://plumvillage.shop/products/books/zen/the-other-shore-...
[4] https://joy.tergar.org/
[5] https://www.instagram.com/wearejared/
[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots_of_Yoga
[7] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/784289
[8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_on_Yoga
[9] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/35455963
[10] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/13542603
[11] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/295000.Cutting_Through_S...
Same as all the psychs.
And altered perspective can make you wiser.
Some of these sound more like advertisements.
Side by Side Down to exact method. So many breaths, long, short, lengths, times.
I'd really like to know if it all boils down to just O2/CO2 balance, and each method just ends up with a different ratio.
That said: here's a description of prodromal schizophrenia. Your description reads like category #2 to me.
"Prodrome phase can also be categorized in three different ways:
https://www.verywellhealth.com/prodromal-schizophrenia-51942...It felt strange, yes you can midly hallucinate and feel "otherworldly" but I always left thinking "ok, I just hyperventilated for 20 minutes ... this is exatly how I'd expect to feel".
And now we have a scientific study that proves it.
It seemed pretty obvious to me.
As if we fully understand, brain, conciousness, biology, body & spiritual experiences fully. There is so much to learn.
The questions for instance arises how does this connect to emotional & spiritual experiences that derive from those practices.
It's the same with psychedelics, they are chemically induced but often lead to meaningful experiences due a shift in the way we experience reality & conciousness.
Is it a peak into a wider experience of the world that makes us realize the world as we experience it, might not be as real as we think it is? Who knows, so many interesting questions & options.
That's how I ended up in a breathwork session.
But I still live in the universe, and the universe follows rules.
In this case, my body's CO2/Oxygen imbalance was out of whack, and I probably should have started breathing into a paper bag.
Consciousness is cool and all, but doing solid breathwork for over 20 minutes will upset the balance of molecules impotrant to a functioning consciousness. So while you may feel yourself soaring toward another dimension, it's your brain screaming for oxygen.
My 2 cents.
But the idea that you would do that routinely seems obviously stupid to me. I think if you keep doing it for a number of years then you could damage your brain. My understanding is that your brain needs oxygen.
> Hyperventilation is irregular breathing that occurs when the rate or tidal volume of breathing eliminates more carbon dioxide than the body can produce.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperventilation
But that line of reasoning unfortunately leads absolutely nowhere worth going, a lot of supposed woo woo turns out to be something else on closer examination.
Living life by popular opinion is not a very successful strategy if you ask me.