I'm starting to think nostr was barking up the right tree after all. Put as much complexity into the client as possible and make the servers dumb and completely uncoordinated, utterly interchangeable. Spam your broadcasts to any relay that will listen. No idea if it actually works (I've read a lot about nostr and AT proto but never used either of them) but I think it's very obvious that any system that deeply relies on some company that everyone becomes extremely reliant on (including AT proto/Bluesky) is only a couple steps away from the same sort of problems as centralization.

Of course, the real gold standard would be P2P, if only it could work. But... mobile phones can't burn battery running P2P clients in the background, everyone's under a NAT these days, and some types of software (like microblogging networks) would be horrifically intractable as a P2P system.

Oh well. At the very least, I really love the concept of Decentralized Identifiers (DIDs). I'd like to see more stuff like that.

ActivityPub seems to require a lot of hardware resources in order to run properly, which is unfortunate. It’s not something I would ever want to run myself, especially to the public.

Besides the monetary costs of operating small fora there are also significant competence hurdles. Site owners who manage to hit a couple thousand users have to figure out spam handling, automated content moderation (including photoDNA and the required reporting if they host images), registering a DMCA agent with the copyright office, setting up an LLC, assessing their needs for COPPA, GDPR and CCPA, their site's tax situation and anything they may want to do involving employing others (such as T&S) without getting burnt out. The median size for a forum getting its first subpoena is 4,300 users.

Managing all of that is easily learnable in a couple months if they have time, disposable income and few distractions but surprisingly few people who have site management thrust upon them know about these things in advance. To most people who think about running an internet anything the above are unknown unknowns. You can't go looking for things you don't know exist, so burnout is high.

I, too, ran my own instance. I enjoyed it for some time but I've now moved to the omg.lol ecosystem. I feel that by paying a little money for it that I have a higher chance of the server not shutting down.

> Federated networks like Mastodon and Lemmy are going to get people well-acquainted with websites shutting down. It's hard work (time, money, etc.) to run these things for people, and people start to really lean on them.

Mastodon is filled with such utterly basic UX issues. You move instances because the old one announces a shutdown? No old posts visible, no import possible. You want to see the history of an old account on another instance? The oldest toot you'll see is the first one that your instance picked up from that account. You have to switch to their instance to see old toots - there's a helpful link at the end of the feed, but it's still annoying. "Trending" topics only carry stuff happening on your server, and most of it is days old garbage. Search is horribly broken and inconsistent.

I like Mastodon, it’s the only Twitter like thing I use.

But I think this just reflects the facts. Centralization works and is highly preferable for many users. Just like in the only big federated service: email.

Yes you can run your own. But there are a lot of costs in terms of time/complexity/knowledge/trust to that.

Outsourcing it to someone else is really nice.

You don’t need one big instance like Twitter was. Having a small handful of big ones works well too.

But the dream some people seemed to have where everyone should run their own instance alone or with a few friends was never going to happen.

As always, it depends. I'm on a mastodon instance centered around a fairly specific topic, whose members donate (more than) enough to cover the costs of running the instance.

Of course, it still relies on the benevolence of the guy who runs and maintains the instance. He actually takes a fee out of the donations each month to pay for his time, but it's a token amount.

> users are still at the mercy of the operator

Mastodon allows you to be the operator, if you so choose.

This is why I believe that Bluesky and the AT protocol is a significantly more attractive system than Mastodon and ActivityPub. Frankly, we’ve tried the kind of system ActivityPub offers before: a decentralized server network ultimately forming one big system, and the same problems have inevitably popped up every time.

XMPP tried to do it for chat. All the big players adopted it and then either realized that the protocol wasn’t complex enough for the features they wanted to offer or that it was much better financially to invest in a closed system. Sometimes both. The big providers split off into their own systems (remember, Google Talk/Hangouts/Chat and Apple iChat/FaceTime both started out as XMPP front-ends) and the dream of interconnected IMing mostly died.

RSS tried to do it for blogs. Everyone adopted it at first, but eventually content creators came to the realization that you can’t really monetize sending out full-text posts directly in any useful way without a click back to the originating site (mostly defeating the purpose), content aggregators realized that offering people the option to use any front-end they wanted meant that they couldn’t force profitable algorithmic sorts and platform lock-in, and users overwhelmingly wanted social features integrated into their link aggregators (which Google Reader was famously on the cusp of implementing before corporate opted to kill it in favor of pushing people to Google+; that could have potentially led to a very different Internet today if it had been allowed to release). The only big non-enthusiast use of RSS that survives is podcasts, and even those are slowly moving toward proprietary front-ends like Spotify.

Even all the way back to pre-Web protocols: IRC was originally a big network of networks where every server could talk to every other server. As the system grew, spam and other problems began to proliferate, and eventually almost all the big servers made the decision to close off into their own internal networks. Now the multi-server architecture of IRC is pretty much only used for load balancing.

But there’s two decentralized systems that have survived unscathed: the World Wide Web over HTTP and email over SMTP. Why those two? I believe that it’s because those systems are based on federated identities rather than federated networks.

If you have a domain name, you can move the website attached to it to any publicly routable server and it still works. Nobody visiting the website even sees a difference, and nobody linking to your website has to update anything to stay “connected” to your new server. The DNS and URL systems just work and everyone just locates you automatically. The same thing with email: if you switch providers on a domain you control, all the mail still keeps being routed to you. You don’t have to notify anyone that anything has changed on your end, and you still have the same well-known name after the transition.

Bluesky’s killer feature is the idea of portable identities for social media. The whole thing just ties back to a domain name: either one that you own or a subdomain you get assigned from a provider. That means that picking a server isn’t something the average person needs to worry about, you can just use the default and easily change later if you want to and your entire identity just moves with you.

If the server you’re on evaporates, the worst thing that you lose is your activity, and that’s only if you don’t maintain any backups somewhere else. For most people, you can just point your identity at a different server, upload a backup of your old data, and your followers don’t even know anything has changed. A sufficiently advanced client could probably even automate all of the above steps and move your whole identity elsewhere in one click.

Since the base-level object is now a user identity rather than a server, almost all of the problems with ActivityPub’s federation model go away. You don’t deal with blocking bad servers, you just block bad people (optionally using the same sorts of “giant list” mechanisms already available for places like Twitter). You don’t have to deal with your server operator getting themself blacklisted from the rest of the network. You don’t have to deal with your server operator declaring war on some other server operator and suddenly cutting you off from a third of your followers.

People just publish their posts to a server of their choice, others can fetch those posts from their server, the server in question can be moved wherever without affecting anything for those other users, and all of the front-end elements like feed algorithms, post display, following lists and block lists, and user interface options could either be handled on the client-side or by your choice of (transferable) server operator. Storage and bandwidth costs for text and (reasonable) images are mostly negligible at scale, and advertising in clients, subscription fees, and/or offering ancillary services like domain registration could easily pay for everything.

ActivityPub sounds great to nerds who understand all of this stuff. But it’s too complicated for the average social media user to use, and too volatile for large-scale adoption to take off.

AT protocol is just as straightforward to understand as email (“link a website domain if you already have one or just register for a free one on the homepage, and you can easily change in the future”), doesn’t require any special knowledge to utilize, and actually separates someone’s identity and content from the person running the server. Mastodon is 100 tiny Twitters that are somewhat connected together, AT actually lets everyone have their own personal Twitter and connect them all together in a way that most people won’t even notice.

What was it?