"We avoided specifying the country or war to avoid involving GrapheneOS in a debate on forced conscription in an existential defensive war."
I will follow their wishes and not specify the specific war or side, but this comment gives me all the information to figure it out.
strcat 2 hours ago [-]
> I will follow their wishes and not specify the specific war or side, but this comment gives me all the information to figure it out.
The primary goal of making it public was getting him diverted away from infantry to a role related to software engineering and/or security research. It makes little to send the lead developer of a security research and engineering project to launch grenades from a trench. We got in contact with high level people who were able to intervene after he completed 45 days of basic training. He had to do several weeks of menial tasks and was just recently transferred to a more sensible tech related role. We're still down our most important developer.
We deliberately made it obvious which country we were talking about without directly specifying it. A Russian opposition paper did the basic investigative journalism required to confirm what we implied:
The way we approached it worked out well. It was an appeal to their military leadership based on it not being in their interest to use him as infantry, not a political statement. Ukraine forcibly conscripting men aged 25 through 60 to defend against an invader trying to wipe out their nationality is a messy topic. We had to publicly post about it to get help, that's all.
tonyhart7 12 hours ago [-]
why they don't just said outright???
is that controversial??
bawolff 10 hours ago [-]
To me it sounds like they perhaps broadly support the war and maybe even think conscription is necessary, but also are worried about their friend, so they want to post something without creating negative press for the country (i think this would probably most fit if the country in question was Ukraine).
It also opens the door to possibly inconvenient discussions with speculations about Graphene's security (referring to both products and org) in relation to, say, Israel, its military, as well as its associated espionage and sabotage efforts (e. g. Pegasus).
The same swings the other way around, i. e. Graphene protecting its devs against any outside threats. Etc.
Hence "[...] in relation to, say, [...]". It was an example. The possibility of Ukraine, or other nations for that matter, was already in discussion at that point. Nonetheless, thanks for the details.
Hizonner 5 hours ago [-]
Are you OK? You don't sound OK.
wiseowise 11 hours ago [-]
Afraid to trigger Russian bots? Afraid of backlash in Ukraine? Afraid to “pick a side” in the conflict?
Even though the guy is obviously on the right side of history, it might be problematic for project like Graphene to acknowledge it.
In Ukraine, it is very dangerous to publicly say things that could be considered critical of the war. There is a real chance of arrest or disappearance by the security services.
yreg 10 hours ago [-]
You meant to say in Russia.
senectus1 10 hours ago [-]
Fair chance that both are true. Ukraine's survival is dependent on a unified stance against the aggressor.
DiogenesKynikos 10 hours ago [-]
You can also get into serious trouble in Russia for opposing the war. But no, I meant exactly what I said. People who criticize the war effort in Ukraine are regularly disappeared.
diggan 9 hours ago [-]
Are there any public and verified stories about this? Not doubting you, just want to read more about it and not finding much that could be verified.
eenokentee 45 minutes ago [-]
[dead]
bawolff 13 hours ago [-]
I mean, afaik there is only one country in the world that is at war and is using conscription (as opposed to reserve forces or voluntary paid contracts)
As far as i know, Russia mostly stopped using conscription for the ukraine war effort after popular discontent, and now mostly only uses conscripts internally, with most of the russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine being offered large sums of money to "volunteer".
I was initially assuming Israel was relying on reserves for the current war, which seems to be true, but it also sounds like being in the reserves is mandatory so i guess that is conscription with extra steps.
Some draftees are made sign the contract not just with large sums of money but also force/torture. I am told it happens almost dsily and knowing a bit what russian army is like I think it is likely. Probably more likely if you are non-slavic guy from the regions and not a big city
All of those countries describe the wars in question to their own citizens as existential. It might be bullshit, but that doesn't really change the fact that people within each and every one of those countries may very well view them as existential.
That's basically war propaganda 101 - the war is defensive and existential.
wiseowise 9 hours ago [-]
Supposedly we’re talking about an actual existential threat, e.g. Russia occupying Ukraine.
dontleakkeys 9 hours ago [-]
What we're talking about is the GrapheneOS account claiming someone was conscripted, and claiming that it's an "existential and defensive" war. I assume this is basically true and that it's probably Ukraine or maybe Israel, but the way they're talking about how everyone is against them and sabotaging them makes me think we may not be dealing with a reliable narrator.
I assume that there's truth to what they're saying and that they probably were swatted, and that's awful. But it doesn't feel right to me. Being betrayed seems to be a consistent part of the narrative GrapheneOS presents about itself. It's even in the history section on their website.
strcat 2 hours ago [-]
> What we're talking about is the GrapheneOS account claiming someone was conscripted, and claiming that it's an "existential and defensive" war.
Our lead developer was conscripted.
> I assume this is basically true and that it's probably Ukraine or maybe Israel
We made it clear enough it was Ukraine and later publicly confirmed it multiple times once it wasn't going to cause any issues.
> but the way they're talking about how everyone is against them and sabotaging them makes me think we may not be dealing with a reliable narrator.
We've never said everyone is against us. You're misrepresenting our statements. You appear to be alluding to ongoing harassment which baselessly claims that I'm insane, delusional, schizophrenic, etc. Phrasing it the way you did doesn't absolve you of responsibility for participating in it.
> I assume that there's truth to what they're saying and that they probably were swatted, and that's awful.
What we've said about these topics is completely accurate and your attempt at misconstruing it and sowing doubt is wrong.
> But it doesn't feel right to me.
Okay, so you have unfounded theories based on vibes.
> Being betrayed seems to be a consistent part of the narrative GrapheneOS presents about itself. It's even in the history section on their website.
The information we've provided about these topics including about Copperhead's takeover attempt on the project in 2018 is accurate. Our lead developer being a Ukrainian man is easy enough to see from GitHub. They went from by far the most active developer to completely inactive after being forcibly conscripted at the start of April. They're now able to contribute a little bit in their free time again.
bawolff 6 hours ago [-]
No, we're talking about things from the perspective of whomever made the post. We don't know this person's politics or what they believe. They may not be neutral. For that matter if they are somewhere like Russia they might have to worry about falling out a window if they describe something the wrong way.
strcat 2 hours ago [-]
The posts were made from our project account based on the consensus of our team. It was written and reviewed by multiple people prior to posting it. We made it obvious we were talking about Ukraine while not explicitly saying it to avoid involving GrapheneOS in the politics of the war and conscription to the extent possible. The final paragraph of what we posted was added later due to people wrongly speculating it was about Russia or Israel to make it clearer we were talking about Ukraine while also avoiding our posts being interpreted as being against Ukraine defending themselves.
Could be the Israeli army, considering the graphene logo may be a nod to the Star of David.
ThePowerOfFuet 10 hours ago [-]
The logo is a nod to graphene.
dontleakkeys 9 hours ago [-]
And it was founded by a Canadian.
colordrops 9 hours ago [-]
No, it's exactly graphene, which could (I didn't say is) be a nod to the Star of David.
dontleakkeys 9 hours ago [-]
If you have a clear and satisfying explanation in your mind about why a logo has 6-fold symmetry, and still suggest that it is secretly a star of David, I start to get worried about the direction the conversation will go. Even if that isn't how you meant it, there's an audience very willing to receive it that way and they make poor company. Let's keep things on the rails and not get the story flagged.
k4rli 7 hours ago [-]
Fortunately not. They have said not Russian or Isra*li
bugtodiffer 9 hours ago [-]
it said "defensive"
dontleakkeys 9 hours ago [-]
Without expressing my opinion on the war in Gaza, supporters of Israel would probably describe it as "existential and defensive."
Pretty, pretty please, let's not debate whether or not this is the case and just acknowledge we can't rule Israel out.
For that matter, even Russia describes their war that way (not agreeing, just saying that they do in propaganda). We don't know the politics of the person posting, they may be patriotic to whatever country it is, just because they described the war that way, doesn't mean a neutral observer would agree.
I think the best argument against it being Israel, is that it appears to have happened suddenly and unexpectedly. News reporting makes it sound like the Israeli system is very predictable - people get conscripted at a specific age (even in peace time), and then afterwards serve in reserves, that might get called up. Ukraine on the other hand has a significant manpower problem and has been somewhat desperately trying to increase the conscription pool. Someone being unexpectedly caught up in conscription seems more likely in Ukraine's situation where the rules are being actively changed to get more recruits.
strcat 1 hours ago [-]
When we initially made it public, we avoided stating the country but it was heavily implied. The goal was getting help while explicitly avoiding taking a political stance on their use of conscription.
The final paragraph was added later after further internal discussion about how people were misinterpreting the country as being Russia or Israel. It was carefully worded to make it obvious which country we were referring to to almost everyone while also making it clear we weren't taking a stance against them defending themselves. It was meant to be very obvious after the addition of the final paragraph.
> Someone being unexpectedly caught up in conscription seems more likely in Ukraine's situation where the rules are being actively changed to get more recruits.
It wasn't due to a change in rules. They've lowered the age range to 25 through 60 and people age into it but it wasn't either of those things.
throwaway290 8 hours ago [-]
Maybe Israel or Ukraine if they keep "regular communication". On Russian side friend is able to text like once every few weeks I think because of jamming and internet shutdown at the border.
And "diverting somebody away from combat" for this kinda reason sounds not like russian army.
And they saying it is "defensive existential war" is another thing, if this turns out to be Russia GrapheneOS would be on my personal blacklist forever
strcat 1 hours ago [-]
We made it obvious we were talking about Ukraine and have since explicitly confirmed it due to lack of further need to avoid specifying it.
What an odd comment by the person. Why would a software developer of all people be particularly worthy of protection in wartime?
strcat 1 hours ago [-]
It would be quite stupid to send one of the most talented security engineers/researchers in their country and beyond to fight as infantry in trench warfare. Our thread was posted as an appeal to Ukraine's military leadership. The end result is that he'll avoid being highly likely to die and Ukraine will be better off than if they'd wasted him as infantry. Where's the downside?
red-iron-pine 5 hours ago [-]
if you have an existing skillset they're not going to throw you into the infantry.
odds are the dev is in some sort of signals intelligence unit or doing dev on some sort of drone control system, etc.
ditto for if/when they draft doctors, dentists, welders, etc. -- put people with skills and experience in those fields into areas where they can be used.
doesn't mean the graphine dev ain't working 20 hour days and ain't getting targeted by drones -- just they're not line grunts.
closewith 4 hours ago [-]
> if you have an existing skillset they're not going to throw you into the infantry.
There are a lot of highly qualified people in the combat corps.
> ditto for if/when they draft doctors, dentists, welders, etc. -- put people with skills and experience in those fields into areas where they can be used.
Many of which will be very close to the FEBA.
But the Graphene OS commenter seems to be making a moral, not utilitarian, argument, which is both odd and somewhat reprehensible.
strcat 1 hours ago [-]
> But the Graphene OS commenter seems to be making a moral, not utilitarian, argument, which is both odd and somewhat reprehensible.
We posted an appeal to Ukraine's military leadership which was obviously not a moral argument about conscription. Our thread explicitly stated that we aren't taking a position on forced conscription in an existential defensive war.
closewith 57 minutes ago [-]
Asking for this specific developer to be protected is different to asking that they be assigned where would they provide the greatest operational benefit (which may or may not be a position of greater safety).
The former is morally reprehensible and an insult to the families of the war dead.
If this is not clear to you, I think some self reflection is in order.
franga2000 4 hours ago [-]
How is it immoral to say that people should do what the things where they can do the most good?
Thousands of people rely on GrapheneOS, many of whose lives would be in danger from repressive regimes or criminals if GrapheneOS makes a security blunder or even stops being maintained. Working on GrapheneOS probably saves far more lives than being just another frontline soldier.
closewith 4 hours ago [-]
> How is it immoral to say that people should do what the things where they can do the most good?
It is blatantly immoral to say that a person's life should be valued more because of they are a software developer or because of the software they produce, or that it should be protected more than the lives of other people.
> Working on GrapheneOS probably saves far more lives than being just another frontline soldier.
And it doesn't make a life one iota more valuable than anyone else's.
franga2000 2 hours ago [-]
This is not about whose life is more valuable, that's a deep phisolophical question that can't be answered.
Why do armies send people to the front? To defend their citizens' lives from an invading army. By taking the developer away from a project where he saves many lives to the front where he can save few lives if any at all, you're the ond saying that the lives in Ukraine are more valuable than the lives of political dissidents, journalists, refugees, etc. everywhere else.
closewith 1 hours ago [-]
In wartime, militaries face horrific allocation decisions. While it is sensible to use skills effectively, Graphene OS's public messaging that pleads for special treatment for one individual developer because their project is important implies that some individuals' lives merit more protection than others, which is not true.
That messaging is insulting to families of equally skilled people who have died in combat and is also historically a precursor to extreme policies based on perceived human worth.
It's important to note that Graphene didn't ask for this developer to be assigned as a specialist where would they provide the greatest operational benefit - they explicitly asked for protection.
It is morally reprehensible, as are your comments.
franga2000 39 minutes ago [-]
Clearly there is no meaningful discussion to be had here. Take care, I hope your absolutist views serve you well and that they don't fuck things up for the rest of us in the process.
strcat 15 minutes ago [-]
> In wartime, militaries face horrific allocation decisions.
There was no decision made on where to assign him based on his skills prior to our intervention. People are assigned to infantry by default.
> While it is sensible to use skills effectively
This is not what they're doing in practice.
> Graphene OS's public messaging that pleads for special treatment for one individual developer because their project is important implies that some individuals' lives merit more protection than others, which is not true.
That's absolutely not what we said.
> It's important to note that Graphene didn't ask for this developer to be assigned as a specialist where would they provide the greatest operational benefit - they explicitly asked for protection.
No, that's completely wrong. The entire purpose of the post was an appeal to Ukraine's military based on his clear value to them as a very talented security engineer/researcher. The whole point was getting on the radar of high level people who could evaluate that and make the correct decision of having him do work relevant to those skills. That's why we posted about it publicly at all. We had a clear goal and achieved it.
> It is morally reprehensible, as are your comments.
Your claim that what we said or did is morally reprehensible is ludicrous. We didn't do anything to harm their war effort and they'll be far better off using him in a sensible role related to his skills rather than as infantry.
Ukraine's military leadership made the decision to have him transferred to a software development role entirely based on merit and his value to their war effort. It was done entirely by the book with many people aware of it. It was officially authorized by their military's general staff. If you think keeping our friend safe was morally reprehensible, good for you. None of the officers we talked to had any issue with what we did.
Do you think it's morally reprehensible for Russian men to flee Russia to avoid military service in a war of aggression? If anything, it's morally reprehensible for them not to do everything possible to avoid being part of it. Do you think people are obligated to fight and die for the state they were born in regardless of the details?
In regards to the actual circumstances, not everyone agrees men are obligated to fight and die for their country against an aggressor simply because they were born in it. You're treating it as if there's a universal moral code where defending the nation state you were born in is part of it. It's entirely possible to be against Russia's war of aggression and to support Ukraine defending themselves without wholeheartedly supporting forced conscription. Other countries could have intervened with their volunteer-based forces instead of watching Ukraine send their male population off to die against a much larger force without adequate equipment. What's moral about you expecting Ukrainian men to fight and die in a war while you do nothing?
strcat 59 minutes ago [-]
> It is blatantly immoral to say that a person's life should be valued more because of they are a software developer or because of the software they produce, or that it should be protected more than the lives of other people.
We never said anything about his life being worth more than others. We posted an appeal to Ukraine's military leadership explaining his value to their war effort with the goal of keeping our friend safe. What's the problem with that?
> And it doesn't make a life one iota more valuable than anyone else's.
What's the problem with trying to keep our friend safe in a way that helps Ukraine to defend themselves?
jeroenhd 7 hours ago [-]
Software development is a common skill, but software security is a niche. I imagine any army can make good use of someone who's an expert in finding (and patching) security holes and coming up with new exploitation techniques (to thwart).
This isn't so much about being worthy of protection as it is about the army dealing the most damage it can. Exploiting software vulnerabilities to disable production (like the Ukranians did for that drone production company) can save as many lives as sending someone to the front can. Breaking into networks to gather OPSEC is crucial for any military operation, offensive or defensive.
alex_duf 10 hours ago [-]
software is a useful skill during a war. The same way you probably wouldn't send a doctor to a fight as the doctor is more useful to help with the wounded, a software engineer with an infosec background(as I assume the lead dev of graphene would) could be extremely useful to the war.
Havoc 10 hours ago [-]
Lots of skills are useful during war…
bawolff 10 hours ago [-]
Sure, and some are in more limited supply then others so are valued more highly.
B4uler5 10 hours ago [-]
Tf do you even mean by this?
closewith 8 hours ago [-]
Many people with useful skills - even useful in wartime - are put in harm's way. Many doctors included in field facilities.
But the commenter seems to be making a moral, not utilitary, argument.
jltsiren 10 hours ago [-]
Software is a common skill, especially among military-age men. Probably around 5% of those employed in that group have software-related jobs. Doctors are rarer, and they also need more training to become productive, which makes them harder to replace than software developers.
You can argue that a specific individual has specific skills and experience that make them more valuable to the country in a non-fighting role. But software developer is just another common job.
sunshine-o 8 hours ago [-]
> Lead GrapheneOS developer was forcibly conscripted into a war
Just this headline should really scare us.
Grapheneos is a fantastic project and we should all support them but recent headlines here on HN make me believe we are just delaying a little what is unavoidable. Meaning, soon you will need:
1/ A common spyware smartphone turned off with your digital ID and banking app or whatever.
2/ Another device you can reasonably trust and use with confidence, hopefully with Internet connectivity.
I do not know what that second device will be:
- probably a PinePhone
- or a ClockworkPi uConsole with cellular modem
- maybe one of those LilyGo T-Deck with cellular modem
The open source community have greatly contributed to the success of Android but today I would rather have the smart people of GrapheneOS working on the real escape plan rather than trying to keep us just a little bit longer in the Google trap.
I understand they are working on their own hardware which is a bold step toward this direction.
other8026 8 hours ago [-]
GrapheneOS isn't going anywhere. People keep getting all anxious when they see news and don't seem to understand the facts.
The lead developer was conscripted, but the rest of the development team prepared for Android 16 and the port was completed in a couple of days.
Device-specific repositories were not included by Google this time, so while the port was finished quickly, they had to work around this. And now GrapheneOS has finished the Android 16 port.
So I'm not sure why people need to freak out and start using insecure devices because they _think_ something will happen with no proof. The fact is GrapheneOS is still going strong. And you can see they've been talking about talks with a big OEM on their socials, so even if new Pixels can't be supported in the future, other OEMs are interested.
sunshine-o 7 hours ago [-]
To be clear I am freaking out about the Android ecosystem.
As of today I already need an 2 Android phones
1/ One Google Android phone for my banking app with Google Integrity API working
2/ One GrapheneOS phone for everything else
I could switch bank for the 3rd time, sure. But how long can I run away?
So what I meant is hopefully in the future we will have a GrapheneOS hardware device, but they might also need to fork or leave AOSP. Because trying to be in the Google Android ecosystem and out of it at the same time became impossible or too costly.
We can't spent most of our resources trying fit in instead of creating our own path.
jeroenhd 7 hours ago [-]
I don't think GrapheneOS supports it, but back in the day I dual-booted my Oneplus One at some point. That solution worked on Windows with DRM and anti-cheat, so it may be a partial solution on Android too. I imagine at some point a ROM might use pKVM to boot a copy of Android that passes Play Integrity checks through the necessary spoofs without altering the host OS.
The Play Integrity API is working. Banking apps rejecting GrapheneOS' hashes has nothing to do with Google Android vs AOSP and everything to do with what the banks decide is an acceptable risk.
GrapheneOS implements everything the Play Integrity API needs and is completely honest about doing so. That's unlike many custom ROMs that lie to Google and spoof a device that doesn't support hardware attestation, which makes many banking apps work.
wiseowise 11 hours ago [-]
Why do people jump to conclusion that he is necessarily sent right into the meat grinder?
> We've used our available connections to try to keep them safe. There's no way to get them out of the conscription. However, they're an incredibly talented security researcher and engineer and it would be extraordinarily misguided to send them to front line combat. This seems to be understood now.
wiseowise 9 hours ago [-]
> would be
other8026 7 hours ago [-]
> We're in communication with him and he has been diverted away from combat.
>Why do people jump to conclusion that he is necessarily sent right into the meat grinder?
Because they used critical thinking.
>Army is not only generals and meat waves.
Non-meatgrinder related activities don't need to rely on forced conscripts to function since people run away from jobs that are a death sentence, not from those sitting behind the desk in a bunker.
wiseowise 11 hours ago [-]
> You can't physically force someone to fly a jet or work in intelligence behind a desk
Sure you do. It’s a job like everything else.
> Because they used critical thinking.
Jumping to conclusions isn’t critical thinking.
FirmwareBurner 11 hours ago [-]
>Sure you do. It’s a job like everything else.
Source? What's the on the job performance of those being forced to do something non-meatgrinder related? You're probably not gonna get someone to be an efficient fighter pilot by beating them up, throwing them in a van with a gun to their head. But you can give them a rifle and order them to march since it doesn't take much skill or willingness to fight in order to be an effective bullet sponge.
Occam's razor, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.
>Jumping to conclusions isn’t critical thinking.
Correct, which is why I used critical thinking instead of jumping to conclusions.
red-iron-pine 5 hours ago [-]
> Source? What's the on the job performance of those being forced to do something non-meatgrinder related?
I did signals intelligence in the USMC a decade or two ago.
To paraphrase a discussion I heard: "you do this job or we ship your ass back to the infantry tomorrow and strip your clearance. don't fuck up."
that's how. the option is to learn to do X and Y, or learn to dodge drones.
wiseowise 10 hours ago [-]
Source for what? That it’s a job? If tomorrow there’s a shortage of jet pilots in Ukraine and no volunteers - they’ll put conscripts to training there. Use your critical thinking.
> Correct, which is why I used critical thinking instead of jumping to conclusions.
There’s almost a million of active personnel in Ukrainian army at the moment, a million. That’s the population of Cologne or Amsterdam.
Modern armies, like Ukrainian one, have dozens of branches, and meatgrinder is “only” one of them.
And I still don’t understand what’s your original point anyway?
FirmwareBurner 5 hours ago [-]
> If tomorrow there’s a shortage of jet pilots in Ukraine and no volunteers - they’ll put conscripts to training there. Use your critical thinking.
Error 404: critical thinking not found in your comment.
Have you seen the requirements, physical and mental tests fighter pilots need to pass? What makes you think people who've been beaten into submission by the military recruiters during forced conscription would then be mentally and physically fit to be entrusted with a super expensive and dangerous weapon in the sky?
Ukrainian men have been caught fighting or even boobytrapping the vans of the military recruiters in order to avoid conscription or as revenge against their brutal tactics. Would you then give those guys a 50 Million USD jet armed with bombs and missiles after you beat them into submission to join the military? That's like beating your wife and then giving her the keys to your expensive Mercedes. What do you think is gonna happen then with your Mercedes/jet?
denkmoon 11 hours ago [-]
I wonder how many mess cooks and mechanics are conscripted.
readthenotes1 11 hours ago [-]
What makes you think that? Denmark has forced conscription and there's zero trench warfare going on.
dijit 11 hours ago [-]
Is Denmark at war? I wasn’t aware.
kawsper 10 hours ago [-]
Interestingly lots of Danes have been asking the same question.
The opposition tried (without luck) to get an answer in 2008-2014, latest after the Snowden revelations.
Certain rules in our constitution kicks in if we’re at war.
11 hours ago [-]
nudgeOrnurture 11 hours ago [-]
> You can't physically force someone to fly a jet or work in intelligence.
Yes, you can. Physical force is rarely necessary, though. It's enough to threaten their family, and show an example, first, like how some specific nerve agent spreads in Uncle Theo's body or what not only the Nazis used to do when they annihilated sex hormone production via Estrogen overload or anti-androgen agents. Want this done to your kids? Bam, jet in the air. I guess it's physical force by proxy.
closewith 10 hours ago [-]
In most cases, countries don't even need to do those. Social pressure keeps conscripts in line.
h4kunamata 10 hours ago [-]
The "system" hates what they cannot control.
GrapheneOS, Proton, all are victim of such direct attack.
I checked the guy GOS mentioned: Robert Braxman.
One single photo gives you all the vibes from the guy.
It is the same as "Stop Killing Games" movement with Pirate Software totally against it while spreading misinformation.
Bad for him tho, the internet uncovered all the lies and bs, that guy's life is finished lmao
For GOS, they need some serious security analysts to review Robert's doing and exposed everything, just like "Stop Killing Games" heroes did.
Not that we don't trust GOS but the position they are in, make it easy to be judged as "bias" by the media, only them Robert and cia will stop this bs.
xyzal 12 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
wahern 12 hours ago [-]
Technically anyone, but it might constitute treason for citizens of at least one country.
triyambakam 11 hours ago [-]
The country isn't specified. How do you know?
graphenecheck 11 hours ago [-]
The GrapheneOS author frequently claims to be targeted by many actors, governments, other open source projects...
> GrapheneOS has only ever posted about Braxman in response to his misinformation about us. In his latest video attacking us, he engages in clear libel towards our team.
> GrapheneOS is currently under a state sponsored attack attempting to misrepresent it as being for criminals
> Due to F-Droid deliberately causing friction and annoyances for GrapheneOS users
> There's currently an example of one of these attacks on the project ongoing across Swedish forums and social media.
strcat 2 minutes ago [-]
> The GrapheneOS author frequently claims to be targeted by many actors, governments, other open source projects...
GrapheneOS is an open source project with many project members including many developers. It isn't one person as you're portraying it. GrapheneOS has been attacked by many people, of which there is ample verifiable evidence.
> GrapheneOS has only ever posted about Braxman in response to his misinformation about us. In his latest video attacking us, he engages in clear libel towards our team.
It's easy for people to verify this and to see that this is a charlatan selling insecure products/services. We linked to content from a security researcher who has never been involved in our project going through his content and products/services evaluating it. Other security researchers have done the same.
> GrapheneOS is currently under a state sponsored attack attempting to misrepresent it as being for criminals
People can verify there were multiple news article in Spain from law enforcement contacting publications and portraying GrapheneOS as being for criminals. There were then hundreds of news stories based on those. None of these publications contacted us, but several do say they talked to Spanish law enforcement. We consider a state spreading clear misinformation about GrapheneOS and our userbase to be a state sponsored attack. We explained very clearly what was happening and did not portray it as anything other than what it was.
> Due to F-Droid deliberately causing friction and annoyances for GrapheneOS users
People can see for themselves they're doing this. Multiple F-Droid developers were involved in the company which tried to take over our project in 2018 and have continued on attacking the project since then. That takeover attempt in 2018 is where nearly all the attacks on GrapheneOS originate.
> There's currently an example of one of these attacks on the project ongoing across Swedish forums and social media.
This is accurate information and it's easy to verify it's happening. We didn't speculate about the origin of these attacks.
Your own post from a sockpuppet account demonstrating the attacks on our project including harassment towards our development team where people baselessly claim that I'm insane, delusional, etc. and push fabricated stories about it. Several other freshly created sockpuppet accounts can be seen here too.
other8026 7 hours ago [-]
Isn't it strange how graphenecheck, draftendirekt, and dontleakkeys were all made less than 6 hours ago and are the only three participating in this discussion? Anyway...
The response to Braxman was after he posted a video calling GrapheneOS's founder crazy and made up a whole bunch of lies about the state of GrapheneOS, then plugged his own product. Clearly trying to damage GrapheneOS while helping himself at the same time. https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114824444524603470
The thread about a state sponsored attack came after a sudden flurry of news articles about GrapheneOS being used by criminals and claims that devices running GrapheneOS have been exploited with 0 evidence https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114784469162979608
F-Droid's approach is incorrect. GrapheneOS adds the sensors permission the same way that upstream AOSP adds and splits permissions, so F-Droid blaming GrapheneOS for an issue with their app is incorrect. People should read https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114790171247296048 for more info.
draftendirekt 5 hours ago [-]
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draftendirekt 9 hours ago [-]
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other8026 7 hours ago [-]
That's not at all correct. Members of GrapheneOS readily admit when there are things that can be improved, but will call out misinformation when needed.
The fact that you're bringing up the Rossmann video after saying that is very telling. There's a huge difference between technical discussion and what was very clearly an attack by Rossmann. He clearly knew what he was doing. The video was made shortly after GrapheneOS's founder was swatted. He was understandably upset about that and with Rossmann and Rossmann recorded a private conversation and used that to attack not only GrapheneOS, but also its founder in an attempt to harm GrapheneOS's reputation. Louis didn't actually stop using GrapheneOS, so that part was a lie. It's clear that he was still using GrapheneOS in his later videos.
It's pretty low to bring that video up here. If you have a real technical issue with GrapheneOS, then you could bring that up instead.
draftendirekt 5 hours ago [-]
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dontleakkeys 9 hours ago [-]
Looks like Micay stepped down as leader of the project in 2023?
giingyui 11 hours ago [-]
That’s some damn bad bus factor.
strcat 7 minutes ago [-]
He was conscripted in April and the project successfully continued on and ported to Android 16 in June. It's doing fine. It was a massive hit to the project but it won't die because of it.
"We avoided specifying the country or war to avoid involving GrapheneOS in a debate on forced conscription in an existential defensive war."
I will follow their wishes and not specify the specific war or side, but this comment gives me all the information to figure it out.
The primary goal of making it public was getting him diverted away from infantry to a role related to software engineering and/or security research. It makes little to send the lead developer of a security research and engineering project to launch grenades from a trench. We got in contact with high level people who were able to intervene after he completed 45 days of basic training. He had to do several weeks of menial tasks and was just recently transferred to a more sensible tech related role. We're still down our most important developer.
We deliberately made it obvious which country we were talking about without directly specifying it. A Russian opposition paper did the basic investigative journalism required to confirm what we implied:
https://meduza.io/feature/2025/04/22/veduschego-razrabotchik...
The way we approached it worked out well. It was an appeal to their military leadership based on it not being in their interest to use him as infantry, not a political statement. Ukraine forcibly conscripting men aged 25 through 60 to defend against an invader trying to wipe out their nationality is a messy topic. We had to publicly post about it to get help, that's all.
is that controversial??
The same swings the other way around, i. e. Graphene protecting its devs against any outside threats. Etc.
See the response at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44583672.
Even though the guy is obviously on the right side of history, it might be problematic for project like Graphene to acknowledge it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Israel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Ukraine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Russia
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/4/11/myanmars-military-d...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Sudan
I was initially assuming Israel was relying on reserves for the current war, which seems to be true, but it also sounds like being in the reserves is mandatory so i guess that is conscription with extra steps.
Anyways, i guess your broad point is right.
Some draftees are made sign the contract not just with large sums of money but also force/torture. I am told it happens almost dsily and knowing a bit what russian army is like I think it is likely. Probably more likely if you are non-slavic guy from the regions and not a big city
This story is about a guy who was arrested for theft or something and was "offered" contract. Apparently cops get 100000 rub reward for one guy who they "convince". https://meduza.io/feature/2025/07/13/dozhd-18-letnego-dagest...
That's basically war propaganda 101 - the war is defensive and existential.
I assume that there's truth to what they're saying and that they probably were swatted, and that's awful. But it doesn't feel right to me. Being betrayed seems to be a consistent part of the narrative GrapheneOS presents about itself. It's even in the history section on their website.
Our lead developer was conscripted.
> I assume this is basically true and that it's probably Ukraine or maybe Israel
We made it clear enough it was Ukraine and later publicly confirmed it multiple times once it wasn't going to cause any issues.
> but the way they're talking about how everyone is against them and sabotaging them makes me think we may not be dealing with a reliable narrator.
We've never said everyone is against us. You're misrepresenting our statements. You appear to be alluding to ongoing harassment which baselessly claims that I'm insane, delusional, schizophrenic, etc. Phrasing it the way you did doesn't absolve you of responsibility for participating in it.
> I assume that there's truth to what they're saying and that they probably were swatted, and that's awful.
What we've said about these topics is completely accurate and your attempt at misconstruing it and sowing doubt is wrong.
> But it doesn't feel right to me.
Okay, so you have unfounded theories based on vibes.
> Being betrayed seems to be a consistent part of the narrative GrapheneOS presents about itself. It's even in the history section on their website.
The information we've provided about these topics including about Copperhead's takeover attempt on the project in 2018 is accurate. Our lead developer being a Ukrainian man is easy enough to see from GitHub. They went from by far the most active developer to completely inactive after being forcibly conscripted at the start of April. They're now able to contribute a little bit in their free time again.
See the response at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44583672.
Pretty, pretty please, let's not debate whether or not this is the case and just acknowledge we can't rule Israel out.
See the response at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44583672.
I think the best argument against it being Israel, is that it appears to have happened suddenly and unexpectedly. News reporting makes it sound like the Israeli system is very predictable - people get conscripted at a specific age (even in peace time), and then afterwards serve in reserves, that might get called up. Ukraine on the other hand has a significant manpower problem and has been somewhat desperately trying to increase the conscription pool. Someone being unexpectedly caught up in conscription seems more likely in Ukraine's situation where the rules are being actively changed to get more recruits.
The final paragraph was added later after further internal discussion about how people were misinterpreting the country as being Russia or Israel. It was carefully worded to make it obvious which country we were referring to to almost everyone while also making it clear we weren't taking a stance against them defending themselves. It was meant to be very obvious after the addition of the final paragraph.
See the response at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44583672.
> Someone being unexpectedly caught up in conscription seems more likely in Ukraine's situation where the rules are being actively changed to get more recruits.
It wasn't due to a change in rules. They've lowered the age range to 25 through 60 and people age into it but it wasn't either of those things.
And "diverting somebody away from combat" for this kinda reason sounds not like russian army.
And they saying it is "defensive existential war" is another thing, if this turns out to be Russia GrapheneOS would be on my personal blacklist forever
See the response at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44583672.
> We're in communication with him and he has been diverted away from combat.
https://x.com/GrapheneOS/status/1933311869122720069
odds are the dev is in some sort of signals intelligence unit or doing dev on some sort of drone control system, etc.
ditto for if/when they draft doctors, dentists, welders, etc. -- put people with skills and experience in those fields into areas where they can be used.
doesn't mean the graphine dev ain't working 20 hour days and ain't getting targeted by drones -- just they're not line grunts.
There are a lot of highly qualified people in the combat corps.
> ditto for if/when they draft doctors, dentists, welders, etc. -- put people with skills and experience in those fields into areas where they can be used.
Many of which will be very close to the FEBA.
But the Graphene OS commenter seems to be making a moral, not utilitarian, argument, which is both odd and somewhat reprehensible.
We posted an appeal to Ukraine's military leadership which was obviously not a moral argument about conscription. Our thread explicitly stated that we aren't taking a position on forced conscription in an existential defensive war.
The former is morally reprehensible and an insult to the families of the war dead.
If this is not clear to you, I think some self reflection is in order.
Thousands of people rely on GrapheneOS, many of whose lives would be in danger from repressive regimes or criminals if GrapheneOS makes a security blunder or even stops being maintained. Working on GrapheneOS probably saves far more lives than being just another frontline soldier.
It is blatantly immoral to say that a person's life should be valued more because of they are a software developer or because of the software they produce, or that it should be protected more than the lives of other people.
> Working on GrapheneOS probably saves far more lives than being just another frontline soldier.
And it doesn't make a life one iota more valuable than anyone else's.
Why do armies send people to the front? To defend their citizens' lives from an invading army. By taking the developer away from a project where he saves many lives to the front where he can save few lives if any at all, you're the ond saying that the lives in Ukraine are more valuable than the lives of political dissidents, journalists, refugees, etc. everywhere else.
That messaging is insulting to families of equally skilled people who have died in combat and is also historically a precursor to extreme policies based on perceived human worth.
It's important to note that Graphene didn't ask for this developer to be assigned as a specialist where would they provide the greatest operational benefit - they explicitly asked for protection.
It is morally reprehensible, as are your comments.
There was no decision made on where to assign him based on his skills prior to our intervention. People are assigned to infantry by default.
> While it is sensible to use skills effectively
This is not what they're doing in practice.
> Graphene OS's public messaging that pleads for special treatment for one individual developer because their project is important implies that some individuals' lives merit more protection than others, which is not true.
That's absolutely not what we said.
> It's important to note that Graphene didn't ask for this developer to be assigned as a specialist where would they provide the greatest operational benefit - they explicitly asked for protection.
No, that's completely wrong. The entire purpose of the post was an appeal to Ukraine's military based on his clear value to them as a very talented security engineer/researcher. The whole point was getting on the radar of high level people who could evaluate that and make the correct decision of having him do work relevant to those skills. That's why we posted about it publicly at all. We had a clear goal and achieved it.
> It is morally reprehensible, as are your comments.
Your claim that what we said or did is morally reprehensible is ludicrous. We didn't do anything to harm their war effort and they'll be far better off using him in a sensible role related to his skills rather than as infantry.
Ukraine's military leadership made the decision to have him transferred to a software development role entirely based on merit and his value to their war effort. It was done entirely by the book with many people aware of it. It was officially authorized by their military's general staff. If you think keeping our friend safe was morally reprehensible, good for you. None of the officers we talked to had any issue with what we did.
Do you think it's morally reprehensible for Russian men to flee Russia to avoid military service in a war of aggression? If anything, it's morally reprehensible for them not to do everything possible to avoid being part of it. Do you think people are obligated to fight and die for the state they were born in regardless of the details?
In regards to the actual circumstances, not everyone agrees men are obligated to fight and die for their country against an aggressor simply because they were born in it. You're treating it as if there's a universal moral code where defending the nation state you were born in is part of it. It's entirely possible to be against Russia's war of aggression and to support Ukraine defending themselves without wholeheartedly supporting forced conscription. Other countries could have intervened with their volunteer-based forces instead of watching Ukraine send their male population off to die against a much larger force without adequate equipment. What's moral about you expecting Ukrainian men to fight and die in a war while you do nothing?
We never said anything about his life being worth more than others. We posted an appeal to Ukraine's military leadership explaining his value to their war effort with the goal of keeping our friend safe. What's the problem with that?
> And it doesn't make a life one iota more valuable than anyone else's.
What's the problem with trying to keep our friend safe in a way that helps Ukraine to defend themselves?
This isn't so much about being worthy of protection as it is about the army dealing the most damage it can. Exploiting software vulnerabilities to disable production (like the Ukranians did for that drone production company) can save as many lives as sending someone to the front can. Breaking into networks to gather OPSEC is crucial for any military operation, offensive or defensive.
But the commenter seems to be making a moral, not utilitary, argument.
You can argue that a specific individual has specific skills and experience that make them more valuable to the country in a non-fighting role. But software developer is just another common job.
Just this headline should really scare us.
Grapheneos is a fantastic project and we should all support them but recent headlines here on HN make me believe we are just delaying a little what is unavoidable. Meaning, soon you will need:
1/ A common spyware smartphone turned off with your digital ID and banking app or whatever.
2/ Another device you can reasonably trust and use with confidence, hopefully with Internet connectivity.
I do not know what that second device will be:
- probably a PinePhone
- or a ClockworkPi uConsole with cellular modem
- maybe one of those LilyGo T-Deck with cellular modem
The open source community have greatly contributed to the success of Android but today I would rather have the smart people of GrapheneOS working on the real escape plan rather than trying to keep us just a little bit longer in the Google trap.
I understand they are working on their own hardware which is a bold step toward this direction.
The lead developer was conscripted, but the rest of the development team prepared for Android 16 and the port was completed in a couple of days.
Device-specific repositories were not included by Google this time, so while the port was finished quickly, they had to work around this. And now GrapheneOS has finished the Android 16 port.
So I'm not sure why people need to freak out and start using insecure devices because they _think_ something will happen with no proof. The fact is GrapheneOS is still going strong. And you can see they've been talking about talks with a big OEM on their socials, so even if new Pixels can't be supported in the future, other OEMs are interested.
As of today I already need an 2 Android phones
1/ One Google Android phone for my banking app with Google Integrity API working
2/ One GrapheneOS phone for everything else
I could switch bank for the 3rd time, sure. But how long can I run away?
So what I meant is hopefully in the future we will have a GrapheneOS hardware device, but they might also need to fork or leave AOSP. Because trying to be in the Google Android ecosystem and out of it at the same time became impossible or too costly.
We can't spent most of our resources trying fit in instead of creating our own path.
The Play Integrity API is working. Banking apps rejecting GrapheneOS' hashes has nothing to do with Google Android vs AOSP and everything to do with what the banks decide is an acceptable risk.
GrapheneOS implements everything the Play Integrity API needs and is completely honest about doing so. That's unlike many custom ROMs that lie to Google and spoof a device that doesn't support hardware attestation, which makes many banking apps work.
Army is not only generals and meat waves.
> We've used our available connections to try to keep them safe. There's no way to get them out of the conscription. However, they're an incredibly talented security researcher and engineer and it would be extraordinarily misguided to send them to front line combat. This seems to be understood now.
https://x.com/GrapheneOS/status/1933311869122720069
Because they used critical thinking.
>Army is not only generals and meat waves.
Non-meatgrinder related activities don't need to rely on forced conscripts to function since people run away from jobs that are a death sentence, not from those sitting behind the desk in a bunker.
Sure you do. It’s a job like everything else.
> Because they used critical thinking.
Jumping to conclusions isn’t critical thinking.
Source? What's the on the job performance of those being forced to do something non-meatgrinder related? You're probably not gonna get someone to be an efficient fighter pilot by beating them up, throwing them in a van with a gun to their head. But you can give them a rifle and order them to march since it doesn't take much skill or willingness to fight in order to be an effective bullet sponge.
Occam's razor, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.
>Jumping to conclusions isn’t critical thinking.
Correct, which is why I used critical thinking instead of jumping to conclusions.
I did signals intelligence in the USMC a decade or two ago.
To paraphrase a discussion I heard: "you do this job or we ship your ass back to the infantry tomorrow and strip your clearance. don't fuck up."
that's how. the option is to learn to do X and Y, or learn to dodge drones.
> Correct, which is why I used critical thinking instead of jumping to conclusions.
There’s almost a million of active personnel in Ukrainian army at the moment, a million. That’s the population of Cologne or Amsterdam. Modern armies, like Ukrainian one, have dozens of branches, and meatgrinder is “only” one of them.
And I still don’t understand what’s your original point anyway?
Error 404: critical thinking not found in your comment.
Have you seen the requirements, physical and mental tests fighter pilots need to pass? What makes you think people who've been beaten into submission by the military recruiters during forced conscription would then be mentally and physically fit to be entrusted with a super expensive and dangerous weapon in the sky?
Ukrainian men have been caught fighting or even boobytrapping the vans of the military recruiters in order to avoid conscription or as revenge against their brutal tactics. Would you then give those guys a 50 Million USD jet armed with bombs and missiles after you beat them into submission to join the military? That's like beating your wife and then giving her the keys to your expensive Mercedes. What do you think is gonna happen then with your Mercedes/jet?
The opposition tried (without luck) to get an answer in 2008-2014, latest after the Snowden revelations.
Certain rules in our constitution kicks in if we’re at war.
Yes, you can. Physical force is rarely necessary, though. It's enough to threaten their family, and show an example, first, like how some specific nerve agent spreads in Uncle Theo's body or what not only the Nazis used to do when they annihilated sex hormone production via Estrogen overload or anti-androgen agents. Want this done to your kids? Bam, jet in the air. I guess it's physical force by proxy.
I checked the guy GOS mentioned: Robert Braxman. One single photo gives you all the vibes from the guy.
It is the same as "Stop Killing Games" movement with Pirate Software totally against it while spreading misinformation. Bad for him tho, the internet uncovered all the lies and bs, that guy's life is finished lmao
For GOS, they need some serious security analysts to review Robert's doing and exposed everything, just like "Stop Killing Games" heroes did.
Not that we don't trust GOS but the position they are in, make it easy to be judged as "bias" by the media, only them Robert and cia will stop this bs.
https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS
> GrapheneOS has only ever posted about Braxman in response to his misinformation about us. In his latest video attacking us, he engages in clear libel towards our team.
> GrapheneOS is currently under a state sponsored attack attempting to misrepresent it as being for criminals
> Due to F-Droid deliberately causing friction and annoyances for GrapheneOS users
> There's currently an example of one of these attacks on the project ongoing across Swedish forums and social media.
GrapheneOS is an open source project with many project members including many developers. It isn't one person as you're portraying it. GrapheneOS has been attacked by many people, of which there is ample verifiable evidence.
> GrapheneOS has only ever posted about Braxman in response to his misinformation about us. In his latest video attacking us, he engages in clear libel towards our team.
It's easy for people to verify this and to see that this is a charlatan selling insecure products/services. We linked to content from a security researcher who has never been involved in our project going through his content and products/services evaluating it. Other security researchers have done the same.
> GrapheneOS is currently under a state sponsored attack attempting to misrepresent it as being for criminals
People can verify there were multiple news article in Spain from law enforcement contacting publications and portraying GrapheneOS as being for criminals. There were then hundreds of news stories based on those. None of these publications contacted us, but several do say they talked to Spanish law enforcement. We consider a state spreading clear misinformation about GrapheneOS and our userbase to be a state sponsored attack. We explained very clearly what was happening and did not portray it as anything other than what it was.
> Due to F-Droid deliberately causing friction and annoyances for GrapheneOS users
People can see for themselves they're doing this. Multiple F-Droid developers were involved in the company which tried to take over our project in 2018 and have continued on attacking the project since then. That takeover attempt in 2018 is where nearly all the attacks on GrapheneOS originate.
> There's currently an example of one of these attacks on the project ongoing across Swedish forums and social media.
This is accurate information and it's easy to verify it's happening. We didn't speculate about the origin of these attacks.
Your own post from a sockpuppet account demonstrating the attacks on our project including harassment towards our development team where people baselessly claim that I'm insane, delusional, etc. and push fabricated stories about it. Several other freshly created sockpuppet accounts can be seen here too.
The response to Braxman was after he posted a video calling GrapheneOS's founder crazy and made up a whole bunch of lies about the state of GrapheneOS, then plugged his own product. Clearly trying to damage GrapheneOS while helping himself at the same time. https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114824444524603470
The thread about a state sponsored attack came after a sudden flurry of news articles about GrapheneOS being used by criminals and claims that devices running GrapheneOS have been exploited with 0 evidence https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114784469162979608
F-Droid's approach is incorrect. GrapheneOS adds the sensors permission the same way that upstream AOSP adds and splits permissions, so F-Droid blaming GrapheneOS for an issue with their app is incorrect. People should read https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114790171247296048 for more info.
The fact that you're bringing up the Rossmann video after saying that is very telling. There's a huge difference between technical discussion and what was very clearly an attack by Rossmann. He clearly knew what he was doing. The video was made shortly after GrapheneOS's founder was swatted. He was understandably upset about that and with Rossmann and Rossmann recorded a private conversation and used that to attack not only GrapheneOS, but also its founder in an attempt to harm GrapheneOS's reputation. Louis didn't actually stop using GrapheneOS, so that part was a lie. It's clear that he was still using GrapheneOS in his later videos.
It's pretty low to bring that video up here. If you have a real technical issue with GrapheneOS, then you could bring that up instead.