In California, rape of an unconscious person is not considered a violent felony for the purposes of 'strikes' as well as early release from prison. A rapist may serve as little as 50% of their sentence due to this fact.
It was only this year (2025) that rape of an unconscious person who was made unconscious by the assailant (a date rape drug provision like Germany's) became a violent felony. Germany is not alone in these types of reclassifications.
Beijinger 1 hours ago [-]
Great. But this does not address the elephant in the room.
Time to open the borders to North Korean immigration?
39 minutes ago [-]
throwaway290 59 minutes ago [-]
> rape by ethnicity
doesn't say of victims or perpetrators. or either?
vasco 28 minutes ago [-]
Perpetrator
29 minutes ago [-]
sebst 4 hours ago [-]
Could someone with a background in law explain the advantage of a reclassification over imposing the same penalties on this particular group of substances?
Because outside of the legal definition, I would not call those “weapons” in everyday language. They are a thing on their own…
Klaus23 59 minutes ago [-]
I don't have a background in law, but here are some suggestions. The German penal code often imposes harsher punishments for the same offense if a weapon was involved. Rape, for example, carries a minimum sentence of two years. If a weapon is present, it is a minimum of three years. If the weapon is used, the minimum sentence is 5 years.
Before the change, date rape drugs would have fallen under a minimum of three years because of a separate clause.
Classifying them as weapons would also affect crimes other than rape.
Additionally, if legal substances can be used as date rape drugs, classifying them as weapons would give the police more authority to act in certain situations.
greggyb 4 hours ago [-]
One avenue, couched in specifics of US law, but I presume the ideas have analogs in Germany's legal system:
A battery occurs when a harmful physical contact occurs. Contact with a weapon is pretty much by definition battery.
The use of such a drug in the commission of rape or other violent crimes would then be a very easily proven case. If the substance is present in a victim's body, then battery has occured, basically by definition.
Given that rape and other violent crimes that are committed with the use of such drugs may not leave other physical signs on the body of the victim, then this may be the only physical evidence.
The examination for presence of such a drug in the bloodstream is also much less intrusive than for a typical rape kit exam.
There's nothing binary or black and white in such investigations, so this is an additional avenue to provide evidence to support the prosecution of these violent criminals.
jojobas 3 hours ago [-]
> If the substance is present in a victim's body
There is a possibility that the accused has nothing to do with it, you still have to prove it wasn't some third party or the victim who procured and took the drug.
im3w1l 3 hours ago [-]
> you still have to prove it wasn't some third party or the victim who procured and took the drug.
Does it actually work that way in the real world?
jonahrd 3 hours ago [-]
Yes, people can and do recreationally take GHB quite often. (also commonly used in date rape cases)
The same can be said for MDMA, and others
im3w1l 55 minutes ago [-]
Let me clarify. I meant the following. Assume ghb is found and evidence of sex. The woman claims she didn't take it and didn't want to have sex. Wouldn't this be enough for a conviction?
fsckboy 17 minutes ago [-]
if the jury believed the woman's claims, yes, it's enough for conviction. conviction rates are high not because it's easy to prove guilt, but because district attorneys don't bring case that are likely to be lost. the scenario you describe might not be considered strong enough to win, and resources are limited, so this hypothetical case might not get a hearing.
galagawinkle489 32 minutes ago [-]
[dead]
purplepatrick 4 hours ago [-]
Perhaps it has to do with the fact that Germany has a written legal code. This could mean that punishments are more strictly classified than under a, say, precedence-based common law system. Changing the classification could move these kinds of crimes into harsher punishment bands.
andrewflnr 3 hours ago [-]
The law being written does not prevent changing it[0]. Someone changed the written law once to add these weapon-specific provisions, they can do it again. And unless the optimal provisions for date rape drugs are identical to those for weapons, they probably should do it again.
[0] It might actually be easier to change a properly written law. I hate our stupid precedent-based system in the US.
Beijinger 1 hours ago [-]
No law, no crime. [nullum crimen sine lege]
If aliens land in Germany on a field and a peasant shoots them with his shotgun, he would have committed no crime in my opinion. No murder, since Aliens are not humans. It would not be illegal hunting, since aliens are not animals. Illegal discharge of a firearm?
In the US the outcome may be very different.
andrewflnr 60 minutes ago [-]
How do you think that bears on my post, which is a variation on "please write the damn law, but in a sensical way please"?
Beijinger 49 minutes ago [-]
You can't write a law for every possible situation. And many laws were introduced because they were committed, and they realized, there is no law to punish the person.
English common law had many good ideas. The US criminal system may be a mess, but the underlying ideas are good. Not everybody can be Norway.... ;-)
cindyllm 1 hours ago [-]
[dead]
wongarsu 4 hours ago [-]
I wasn't able to find any information on how exactly that reclassification is happening. Everyone just quotes that one sentence by the Federal Minister of the Interior that they are doing it.
My best guess is that they don't see a chance to get a law to this effect passed (see also the note about the other related bill being postponed), so they are taking some measure that's in the existing jurisdiction of the ministry. That might be the ministry passing regulations to this effect, or the federal police trying to declare date rape drugs as illegal weapons
neetle 3 hours ago [-]
They fall into the same fuzzy area as chemical weapons imo. They have a non-standard form factor, sure, but they’re still primarily intended to harm people
kachapopopow 4 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
BriggyDwiggs42 4 hours ago [-]
Wait did you just put rape in quotes wtf
add-sub-mul-div 3 hours ago [-]
"Forget it, Jake. It's Hacker News."
david38 3 hours ago [-]
Seems reasonable, but maybe not exactly a weapon. It is used to subdue someone, but not as a threat. Should be a parallel class.
And while the intended assault is a sexual assault, a date rape drug still incapacitates you, which easily classifies as kidnapping, unlawful detainment, etc.
stocksinsmocks 2 hours ago [-]
I would have thought poisoning someone, even with a sedative, would already be a serious crime. This makes me wonder if this is addressing a weakness in the force of law or if it’s political pandering to look tough on a class of crime without changing anything.
eqvinox 3 hours ago [-]
A stick of dynamite probably counts as a weapon too (I would think?), in a legal sense. I'd say it's a reasonable perspective for the legalese.
Also, cars have been considered weapons in some cases.
It was only this year (2025) that rape of an unconscious person who was made unconscious by the assailant (a date rape drug provision like Germany's) became a violent felony. Germany is not alone in these types of reclassifications.
https://x.com/XenosELY/status/1675892663520747520/photo/1
doesn't say of victims or perpetrators. or either?
Because outside of the legal definition, I would not call those “weapons” in everyday language. They are a thing on their own…
Before the change, date rape drugs would have fallen under a minimum of three years because of a separate clause.
Classifying them as weapons would also affect crimes other than rape.
Additionally, if legal substances can be used as date rape drugs, classifying them as weapons would give the police more authority to act in certain situations.
A battery occurs when a harmful physical contact occurs. Contact with a weapon is pretty much by definition battery.
The use of such a drug in the commission of rape or other violent crimes would then be a very easily proven case. If the substance is present in a victim's body, then battery has occured, basically by definition.
Given that rape and other violent crimes that are committed with the use of such drugs may not leave other physical signs on the body of the victim, then this may be the only physical evidence.
The examination for presence of such a drug in the bloodstream is also much less intrusive than for a typical rape kit exam.
There's nothing binary or black and white in such investigations, so this is an additional avenue to provide evidence to support the prosecution of these violent criminals.
There is a possibility that the accused has nothing to do with it, you still have to prove it wasn't some third party or the victim who procured and took the drug.
Does it actually work that way in the real world?
The same can be said for MDMA, and others
[0] It might actually be easier to change a properly written law. I hate our stupid precedent-based system in the US.
If aliens land in Germany on a field and a peasant shoots them with his shotgun, he would have committed no crime in my opinion. No murder, since Aliens are not humans. It would not be illegal hunting, since aliens are not animals. Illegal discharge of a firearm?
In the US the outcome may be very different.
English common law had many good ideas. The US criminal system may be a mess, but the underlying ideas are good. Not everybody can be Norway.... ;-)
My best guess is that they don't see a chance to get a law to this effect passed (see also the note about the other related bill being postponed), so they are taking some measure that's in the existing jurisdiction of the ministry. That might be the ministry passing regulations to this effect, or the federal police trying to declare date rape drugs as illegal weapons
And while the intended assault is a sexual assault, a date rape drug still incapacitates you, which easily classifies as kidnapping, unlawful detainment, etc.
Also, cars have been considered weapons in some cases.